Joanna Sternberg is an artist born and raised in New York City. Their latest record, I’ve Got Me, is out now on Fat Possum.
Joanna Sternberg is a singer-songwriter and illustrator from New York City; Billie Marten is a singer-songwriter from Yorkshire. Billie’s new record Dog Eared is out now, so to celebrate, the two artists connected over Zoom to talk their love for sleeping, their “neurodivergent journeys,” and much more.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music
Joanna Sternberg: Billie, hi! I love your music so much, and it’s so great to meet you on the internet.
Billie Marten: Oh, I’m overjoyed. And I’m nervous to meet a hero.
Joanna: I’m nervous! I’m so nervous I overslept. I feel so bad — I don’t know what it is. What is your relationship to sleep like?
Billie: Well, I’m so glad you asked, because the fact that we didn’t do the interview two hours ago meant that I could then go for a nap.
Joanna: There we go. I love it.
Billie: I love sleep so much. [Laughs.]
Joanna: I’m like a sloth, I always say.
Billie: Yeah, sleeping is my best skill.
Joanna: No wonder we get each other’s music. There must be some undertones of sleep love.
Billie: Definitely. People often say that they fall asleep to my music.
Joanna: Me too!
Billie: Does it offend you? Because it offends me a little bit.
Joanna: It depends on the song probably. [Laughs.]
Billie: Yeah, right. It’s like, “OK, well, you’ve just told me that I’m boring.”
Joanna: I’ve certainly never fallen asleep to your music. I definitely more like to draw or paint to your music than sleep.
Billie: Yeah, whereas I’m just weeping to yours.
Joanna: And also weeping. I mean, it helps me to draw and paint while being inspired emotionally. I’ll listen to Bach or Beethoven or you. Or I have been obsessed with The Magnetic Fields lately.
Billie: That 69 Love Songs album—
Joanna: I love that.
Billie: My favorite is “Papa Was a Rodeo.”
Joanna: I love that song! If I ever get to meet you, we should sing that together. That’s one of my favorite songs.
Billie: [Sings,] “Mama was a rock & roll band…”
Joanna: [Sings,] “I could play guitar and rope a steer…” I love Stephin Merritt. But, yeah, I love your new album! It’s amazing that you’ve already made five albums — five amazing albums.
Billie: Well, you know, it’s quality, not quantity. But I guess I started early, so it’s kind of cheating.
Joanna: Not at all. Conor Oberst started early. He ain’t cheating.
Billie: Did he really?
Joanna: He sure did. Ben Lee started early… You guys should all make a community to talk about it, because it’s very rare. But there are people who have started under the age of, like, 15.
Billie: Yeah, I suppose.
Joanna: So, you love to sleep. How many hours of sleep do you like getting, on an ideal night?
Billie: At least 10 would be great.
Joanna: Me too! Interesting.
Billie: I’ve done a lot of social activity recently. Like, a lot, a lot, because it’s been the album time and I’ve been doing in-stores. It’s really fun, but afterwards, there’s at least an hour to an hour-and-a-half of meeting people. Which is just a lot.
Joanna: Well, you’ve got to save your voice. It’s your instrument. If you lose your voice, you can’t play the show. So it’s really hard to navigate singing a whole set and then having to talk to all these lovely people that you want to talk to.
Billie: Yeah. And you have to give them all time and attention and care. And sometimes people have a really intense story to give you.
Joanna: Oh, I bet.
Billie: With only 10 seconds, and there’s a big queue of people behind them. Or sometimes lots of people ask to hug me.
Joanna: Right. How do you feel about hugging in general?
Billie: Well, I love to hug.
Joanna: Me too. But if everyone wants to hug you, that’s another five seconds.
Billie: And I suppose even them asking to hug me still puts me into a corner.
Joanna: Right, because if you say no… It’s almost better if they hug you without asking — even though that’s still bad.
Billie: And I never give them good hugs, because I don’t know these people.
Joanna: I’m so scared of consent, so I’m just like, tap tap. Even though they’re the one who asked to hug me. It’s a social element. Socializing drains me out so much.
Billie: So much. A lot of my friends, sure, they get tired after a party, or you go for a big walk and everyone wants a little nap, or maybe they’ve seen people four or five times a week and then they need one day off. Whereas for every time that I’m socializing, I basically need a day to recover.
Joanna: Right. When I was your age, I was similar. Have you gone through any burnouts before?
Billie: Yeah.
Joanna: You know how that feels. For me, I can go up to a month without socializing because I’m too tired. I went on my record tour last year and the year before, and I got COVID and talked just so much, and I just tried all year to literally be in my bed because it drained me that badly. I get so intimidated by how my friends are just out, out, out every day. They go to the gym, they go to a thing, and they socialize. I’m like, How do you do this?
Billie: And then it makes you feel inadequate.
Joanna: Absolutely.
Billie: To let people down is so devastating.
Joanna: That’s my biggest thing, yes.
Billie: And to let people down when you cannot explain why — you know, even if you say, “I’m so tired.”
Joanna: They’re like, “I’m tired too.”
Billie: Yeah. Everyone’s tired. Everyone’s been tired since the dawn of time. “Come for a coffee, put some jeans on.” And I’m like, “No…”
Joanna: Oh, my gosh, you’re speaking my language.
Billie: But I fully endorse post-social resting. I think that should be more of a commonly spoken about thing.
Joanna: Normalized.
Billie: You know, there might be a weekend away, or you’re in the studio — studio time is interesting.
Joanna: Yeah. How is that for you?
Billie: Completely exhausting.
Joanna: Me too.
Billie: I’m always confused as to when we should talk about normal life things and when we should talk about music.
Joanna: Right. I’m always trying to tell jokes — anything with socializing, I always feel like I have to make people laugh or they’re going to not like me. It’s so draining. But it’s nobody’s fault. It’s just all these paranoid thoughts in my head. That’s why I couldn’t ever have a band because I’d be so paranoid like, What if they’re not having fun, what if I’m not doing this, what if I’m annoying them?
Billie: I mean, first of all, you don’t need a band, and you never should have a band. You’re the whole package.
Joanna: Oh, my gosh, that’s so nice of you to say. I think the same about you. Whatever you want to do is going to be great if you’re singing and playing.
Billie: I love playing on my own — that’s how I started — but then I need people to make the sounds that I can’t make at the same time.
Joanna: Right. I heard you did your whole record with no headphones or something. You did it all very collaboratively, playing at the same time. That sounds like what I’d like to do if I ever could have a band. I love how it sounds.
Billie: Yeah, Phil Weinrobe is is pretty special.
Joanna: He’s amazing. And he must be busy! Everyone wants to work with him. I wonder how he takes time off, because everyone’s asking to do their album with him… But, yeah, your album is incredible. How did you choose the artist who painted the album cover? How did that come to be?
Billie: I found this artist called Daniel Borgonovi. He is Brazilian, but he’s based in Ireland. You should check out his Instagram because he’s got some really cool prints.
Joanna: It’s really a beautiful painting.
Billie: Yeah, he’s very special. I gave him the album and I said, “Go and paint. Paint what you want to paint.”
Joanna: I love that.
Billie: I’ve often given direction for the visual part of music, and it’s never felt quite right because I don’t actually know what I’m doing and I need artists to provide their version of a story.
Joanna: And you trust them to do that. You’re collaborating.
Billie: Yeah. And for some reason, we never met, but that was his first draft.
Joanna: That’s so funny. The first draft and the first take — there’s something about that, because I had an issue with my album cover where I kept drawing it over and over and over and over obsessively, and it was really unhealthy. I was so stressed and it was taking months. And then it turned out that the producer and everyone was like, “Just use the first one.” I was like, “Are you kidding me?” [Laughs.]
Billie: That’s often the way.
Joanna: I’m happy they liked it, but I don’t know. You know when your ears develop or your tastes change and then you look back at things you did creatively and start feeling kind of sick? I was, I guess, going to a weird thing where I convinced myself I forgot how to draw. This happens to me a lot.
Billie: Yeah — can’t do anything. You can’t play anything, you can’t even sing… So, neurodivergent journey.
Joanna: Yes!
Billie: Long. Came out of nowhere. I was having a burnout period.
Joanna: That’s when it came for me.
Billie: Yeah. I thought, What is wrong with me? Everything in my life is great. I’m not sad. Well, I am sad, but you know…
Joanna: It’s us. We’re songwriter sad.
Billie: But that’s not the core. And then all of a sudden I Googled, “AmIAutistic.com,” or something like that. [Laughs.]
Joanna: [Laughs.] That should be a website. There’s this really great website called EmbraceAutism — my therapist at the time gave me that website, because people don’t know which websites are good and some are really harmful. But EmbraceAutism has all these self tests, and that was so helpful for me…
But, so, what happened?
Billie: There was a big red bar that came up that was like “Probably 99% autistic.” And I was like, Woah. Just from doing, like, 20 questions.
Joanna: They say that if you think you might be, you probably are. Just the fact that you’re thinking it means it’s probably true, because you’re resonating with certain things.
Billie: Absolutely.
Joanna: Only you know what it’s like to be you. People perceive you, but they don’t know what it’s like to be you at all, and they never will. And because we’re not boys, and boys don’t have to mask as much — that’s why a lot of autistic non-boys are called Borderline, or diagnosed as Bipolar, or diagnosed with personality disorders. And that’s not fair, because the people with personality disorders aren’t getting help because their spots are being taken by an autistic person who needs different help…
So were you getting a lot of imposter syndrome, like, “No, I’m not really autistic…”? I got that a lot.
Billie: Yeah, I knew it was a silly thing to do to ask the internet for a diagnosis. Obviously, that wasn’t my actual diagnosis. I then decided to take it further. I showed my partner, and I showed lots of people, and everyone was kind of like, “I don’t think that you are…”
Joanna: Right, because they perceive you masking.
Billie: And I’m high-functioning, but I’m trying with 10 times more effort.
Joanna: Exactly. And it’s so hard to explain.
Billie: I watched a video about female-identifying autistic people, and that was even more of a thing.
Joanna: Right. Because growing up, you’re taught to be more polite and you can’t just run around like the boys are allowed to run around and be gross. You have to try to fit in. I was already getting bullied when I was saying nothing, so what would happen if I talked? People could just sense it.
Billie: People definitely targeted me for a reason that I didn’t know.
Joanna: So how was it going to school your whole life not knowing?
Billie: Uh…
Joanna: That’s a loaded question. [Laughs.]
Billie: [Laughs.] I feel that I can give myself a lot more love and kindness for that time than I could when it was happening. I had this thing where my face would go red all the time.
Joanna: I still have that.
Billie: Yeah. And I’d start sweating and I would smell or some something that.
Joanna: I was always sweating. Oh, my god. Being at school, being on all day, and being around scary people, I was not OK. It went to my stomach and I was sweating, and my whole body was sick every day. I hated school.
Billie: I hated school… I wanted to run you by the list that I made of things to tell the doctor during the phone call.
Joanna: Oh, this is interesting.
Billie: I wondered how you feel about these things. Number one, the biggest destroyer, is “Ruminating.” The constant analysis of social situations.
Joanna: Mhm.
Billie: Then I have, “Horses and relationship to animals.” It’s quite a big one for me.
Joanna: Do you love horses.
Billie: Yeah.
Joanna: That’s great. I do too. Do you have horses?
Billie: No, I wish. But when I stop doing music and I fade away into the countryside, I’d like a farm. I just want to be surrounded by animals and nature.
Joanna: You can get a horse relatively soon, I bet.
Billie: [Laughs.] In London?
Joanna: OK, I didn’t know Hackney is, like, city city. I’m so silly. In LA, people have horses, so I don’t know what’s what.
Billie: The equivalent of me having a horse here is like me getting a horse in Bed-Stuy.
Joanna: Right. Anyway, so, horses and animals. I’ve noticed — maybe I’m reading it wrong — but sometimes people’s animals come to me to sit on me when I don’t even invite them. And people are like, “Oh, my cat really likes you.” But they don’t seem happy about it.
Billie: Yeah, everyone’s a bit jealous.
Joanna: I guess they sense that I’m a prey animal, easy to startle. They sense that I’m not going to try to eat them, basically.
Billie: We are prey animals. I’m easily startled, and I’m scared of being eaten…
Joanna: Totally true.
Billie: Next one: “Sleeping excessively and safety in sleep.”
Joanna: “Safety in sleep” — that’s a way to put it. That’s a good album title!
Billie: Yeah. “Chameleon-ing into different personalities, to the point where I’m unsure of my true, unadulterated self.”
Joanna: Totally.
Billie: “Career difficulties.” I don’t know what I meant, but…
Joanna: Well, society puts a lot of value on you having a career and your output. You’re like a one-person factory of music. And it’s like this weird thing where, Oh, people are valuing me because of that. If I didn’t do that, how would they treat me? Because I remember how I was treated before I did that.
Billie: I really struggle with that. Biggie. “Feet and hand stimming.” I rub my feet together like a little rabbit in bed.
Joanna: Me too.
Billie: I’ve always done it… “Finishing tasks is hard,” which is what we’re doing right now. And then “Shutdowns,” “Non-verbal times,” “Needing to hide,” “Sensitivity to noise,” and “A love of water and watery things.”
Joanna: All of those are totally, exactly, 100% yes. I would only add to that, “Weird things with food.”
Billie: Do you know what? There’s a food section on here, and I didn’t read it out because I got embarrassed.
Joanna: Oh, my gosh! I just blurt things out. My food and stomach stuff is so embarrassing.
Billie: I totally get it.
Joanna: I would add to it, “Bodily problems.” Because it’s a full body disorder. It encompasses your full body. People don’t understand that.
Billie: Yeah, I have a giant throat bubble that comes in when I’m stressed.
Joanna: I get hives.
Billie: I went to A&E, urgent care, and I was like, “My throat’s closing up, I’m going to die.” And the doctor was like, “There’s nothing in there. It’s probably your emotions.”
Joanna: It’s like, “Thanks a lot. That helps even less.” [Laughs.]
Billie: Well, Joanna, I love you. You’re so inspiring.
Joanna: You’re so inspiring too!
Billie: We’ll talk more!
